Kanoya Ali (00:02):
Welcome to License to Operate, LTO. A podcast that takes you inside the work happening on Chicago streets to reduce gun violence and transform lives. I'm Kanoya Ali.

Peter Cunningham (00:13):
And I'm Peter Cunningham.

(00:17):
Today we're talking to Cleopatra Cowley, who lost her daughter Hadiya Pendleton to gun violence 12 years ago. We're exploring Cleo's journey from unimaginable loss to becoming a powerful advocate for survivors, her fight through years of court proceedings and how she's channeling her pain into supporting other families affected by gun violence. If you haven't already, hit subscribe and let's get started.

Kanoya Ali (00:49):
Let's get started.

Peter Cunningham (00:56):
Welcome to License to Operate. We should be joined shortly by my co-host, Kanoya Ali, but I thought we'd just get the conversation going a little bit. We're doing this podcast because we want to lift up the people who are working really hard to make Chicago safer, and I don't know if anyone's working harder than you at that right now.

Cleopatra Cowley (01:17):
There's somebody out there.

Peter Cunningham (01:18):
Maybe someone out there is working harder than you, but God knows not everybody has been through what you've been through. So what I'd love to do is just start out by just learning a little about you and just your Chicago story. You're born and raised in Chicago.

Cleopatra Cowley (01:31):
Oh, yes. I am a born and raised Chicagoan. I'm going to say it like that. So yes, I was born in the city of Chicago. I just love my city all around north. So east West, I just love Chicago.

Peter Cunningham (01:43):
And you started a family kind of young, right?

Cleopatra Cowley (01:45):
I did. I mean, I was still an adult, so I think I did well. I conceived my daughter my senior year of college, junior senior year of college, and I had her at 21, so she was at my graduation.

Peter Cunningham (02:01):
Okay. She'd go up on stage with you?

Cleopatra Cowley (02:04):
Yeah, well, not on stage, but she was right there to greet me when I came off, so it was really cool. Yeah, I gained a lot of who I am from having had that experience of motherhood. Of course.

Peter Cunningham (02:17):
And talk a little bit about the work that you do today with Hadiya's Promise.

Cleopatra Cowley (02:22):
Yeah, Hadiya's Promise. So Hadiya's Promise has had a few iterations, and that's just because you got to figure yourself out. It was erected after the tragedy of my daughter being murdered at the age of 15. She was murdered in 2013 on January 29th after her death. To go through that and really understand what it feels like to meet forever, I felt like my other friends and family, I did not want them to know. I knew I had no one that I could confide in because there was a sense of understanding, if that makes sense. So I just tried to start doing the work. I just hit the ground running, just using my voice wherever I could. All different platforms all across the country, in and out of the country. To be perfectly honest, I've traveled on campaigns, I've spoken so many different places just about the impact of losing a loved one to gun violence.

(03:19):
I think most often people look at the situation from the standpoint of the deceased and then their immediate family, whatever that may look like. What people don't realize is every situation is unique. Every single death that occurs is unique. The experiences between the people who have raised that child or had some part in raising that child or benefiting from their laughter or positivity or whatever, it runs deep. So for me, I have, I'm hypersensitive to that part of my life because of the focus and the drive that my daughter gave me by the time I was 21. And so for me, it wasn't just me losing my daughter, it was my son losing his sister, my husband losing his daughter. She had godparents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and then people from the community that really had strong impact on the young lady she was evolving into over time. So I saw it that way and I just wanted to share it with everyone else. It's bigger than just a statistic of that one death. I know she was number 42 in 2013.

Peter Cunningham (04:33):
Yeah, that's bigger than that. I mean, sadly, too often this story is just told through numbers, not through people. It is not through names, not through what their lives were like. In the case of your daughter, we learned a lot more about her in part because she had just traveled to DC to perform in President Obama's second inauguration. But it was also just the shocking nature of the whole thing. It was so random.

Cleopatra Cowley (04:58):
Yeah, random. She was at a park.

Peter Cunningham (05:00):
She was in a park. She was at a park.

Cleopatra Cowley (05:01):
She was doing what every other kid does. She was in high school. So in high school, if anyone can remember, during finals time, the children are let out early. You go to take a specific test and then you're let out. So these young people, they were out early and just decided to go hang, go hang together. And they chose a park, a Jack and Jill park on a very rich block. I'm going to say it like that, a very rich block. So it was not a poor choice. It wasn't like a bunch of girls chasing the bad boys and finding themselves in a bad place. They made a decision to walk from the school to this particular area and then kind of hang out as high school children do. Yeah,

Peter Cunningham (05:43):
Yeah. I remember that Blair Holt, when he was killed, he was killed. He was on a bus coming home from school right where he was supposed to be. People say wrong place, wrong time. But no, he was exactly where he was supposed

Cleopatra Cowley (05:52):
To be. Mind his own business. Let's go there.

Peter Cunningham (05:54):
Mind his own business and doing what he's supposed to do.

Cleopatra Cowley (05:56):
Yeah.

Peter Cunningham (05:57):
Is that Ali? Come on in, man. Quick introduction because we'll keep going. This is Ali. Kanoya Ali. This is Cleopatra Cowley.

Kanoya Ali (06:05):
Cleopatra, nice to meet you.

Cleopatra Cowley (06:07):
Lovely to meet you.

Peter Cunningham (06:08):
She goes by Cleo, right?

Cleopatra Cowley (06:09):
I do.

Peter Cunningham (06:10):
You of course know that her daughter was, had Pendleton who was shot and killed in 2013. We were just talking a little bit about it, but she runs an organization called Hadiya's Promise.

Kanoya Ali (06:22):
When Peter came up with the idea to have you as a guest, I was like, dope. We've heard of this story. It's horrific. It's a landmark in Chicago as far as who can be touched as far as the most innocent, not involved, good family, wrong place, wrong time, boom. What do you do from there? So I'm not asking the question, I'm saying the takeaway that I would imagine a person would be looking for is like, what do you do from a space? I lost my baby. What do I do from this point?

Cleopatra Cowley (07:02):
Give yourself grace is what you do. Okay, I'll just, I'll overshare because this's what I do anyway. I'm being honest. So for me, the most tragic part of after talking about my daughter dying, the other tragedy has been my ability to communicate. Why Cleo would you think your ability to communicate is like a tragedy? It's because it was something I always wanted to do. I always wanted to do it because I just knew I could. It is just this thing, I don't know, I've always been like this yet I would be choked. It would be something in my throat. I would ask for the presentations that I could never do. I remember the first time, first one I ever did eighth grade, we had to do all this in front of the class activity. And when I tell you I all but urinated trying to do it fast forward, I'm going through life.

(07:56):
I know what I want to do. There's some aspect of it that is just hard, which is the actual act of doing it. Well, January 28th, I was still that individual dying to be that version of myself that I thought was the best version of myself because I have so much here. By January 29th when they stole my baby's life, whatever that was, that stopgap was whatever that was, it just went away. And that pains me to this day when I'm alone and I sit back and I think about all the opportunities that I've taken and really been impactful in, I would've loved my daughter to see me because I was really big on using my lived experience to teach. And I hate that she's not here to learn that lesson. So I think when people think about what do they do next, think about the impact that this has had on your life. What is it that you would've loved to do that you didn't get done? And then pay it forward to somebody that hasn't yet gone through your experience and give them that opportunity, if that makes sense.

Peter Cunningham (09:04):
Yeah. And I mean you have a whole change of direction in life because of this for obvious reasons. But now you're doing work that maybe you weren't thinking about doing before this, right? But suddenly here you are, you're running an organization, you're dealing with this issue that affects hundreds of thousands of people every year right here in Chicago. And one of the things I think about is just how much trauma there is in communities that have suffered a lot of gun violence. And I wonder what we need to do to deal with it or to address it or to help people get through it. Is that one of the things that you're spending your time doing?

Cleopatra Cowley (09:43):
I'm not saying I spend all my time doing that. That is not what I exactly do, but I'm always open and partial to that conversation. For me, it is about allowing space, which we did. The early part of the development of the foundation is we created space for our children to speak for them to say what's going on? Because I think that's always a missed area. I think there's so many misses in this movement. One of them is actually listen to the young people that we think we're trying to support. We don't know what they need. There's a suggestion. We know that we can act or behave differently, that's on us. But as far as there being a confirmation of what it is that they can actually utilize what they need right now, that's a conversation to have with them and to just listen and then go take that back with you. And then what do you do with that? And I don't think everyone's need is the same. I think different sides of towns are going to give you different perspectives, but they know the answer.

Peter Cunningham (10:40):
Yeah. We often say at Chicago CRED, we always say, these guys are not the problem. They're actually the solution.

Cleopatra Cowley (10:47):
Well, the result of the issue, because I think the impact is there, right? Because there's so much happening in these homes that we're unaware of. I think we're all in our own bubbles because my life was mine. I hate when people look at Chicago and my story in particular. People would be like, oh my God, was it dangerous where you live? I'm like, they act like I'll open my door and these bullets are flying everywhere. That is not my story. It's never been the story. My story is the fact that it can happen. It simply can happen in the area that the children were in. If they had thought for a second that that could have happened to any one of them, they would've made a different decision. The fact that there was no indicator that this outing could start one way and end another, that's where we're all vulnerable. And that's where I tried to humanize the story. That was my overall impact is just humanizing the experience of people going through unexpected trauma.

Kanoya Ali (11:49):
What has the effect of the children that were there with her, are you still in contact?

Cleopatra Cowley (11:56):
Oh, absolutely. They're family. And that's the thing is when I'm talking about, when people ask me, how's my family? They're a part of that story. They're part of that journey. They have viral videos of them going to visit their friend at her grave because they knew that this song was really hot on the radio. They're like, when your friend leaves too soon, but she would've turned up to this song and they go out there. It's a whole intentional journey to visit Herd's grave. They park on the wrong side of the cemetery, you have to walk. It's a hilarious story, but it's not just an isolated event. They've literally allowed my daughter to grow up with them. So they have babies, they take their babies to the grave and take pictures with them and tell them stories about what their auntie was like and stuff like that. And so that to me is so very heartwarming. They still come over. Jean Junior has very tight relationships with her friends from all different levels of her life, junior high school, high school and so forth. So it doesn't stop where those true connections was that

Kanoya Ali (13:03):
The thing that is often asked, we have so many mothers that lose their children at unexpected times, was no idea that this was going to happen. And often we have to go into homes and talk to the parents and to see them in that space, especially being murdered, it's hard to even comfort them in a way.

Cleopatra Cowley (13:29):
No, it's not in a way, it's hard to comfort them.

Kanoya Ali (13:33):
You right. It's hard to comfort them because if you have a child, it just would come off, if this was my child, get the thought of, I don't even want to hear what anyone has to say in my mind. I remember a young man, Thomas Gaston, his son was killed. His child's mother was getting off the expressway on the south side a couple years ago.

Peter Cunningham (14:00):
Inglewood, right?

Kanoya Ali (14:01):
Oh yeah, Inglewood. He child was 1-year-old, sincere. And I remember holding this child, I remember

Cleopatra Cowley (14:08):
Afterwards,

Kanoya Ali (14:09):
I remember holding him because I know you knew him before.

Cleopatra Cowley (14:12):
Yeah. Okay.

Kanoya Ali (14:14):
Yeah. So I remember Thomas actually wanted to go on this trip to go to Atlanta and he was running late.

Cleopatra Cowley (14:21):
It's so Chicago,

Kanoya Ali (14:23):
He was running late and I was going to deny him the ability to go on a trip because he was late cold. This has sticker a sticker on time. I have been. So this is not my style, particularly late this late when the pizza shows up,

Peter Cunningham (14:43):
I might have

Kanoya Ali (14:44):
To hold off. So he came in and he didn't say, well, he came in with his child. I could see him out of my side eye and I'm writing the list down. I'm getting my speech like, nah bro, you are done. You should have been here on time. And he does this. He doesn't say anything. He hands me the baby and say, man, I have to take care of my son, so I'm holding you with that. I'm holding this baby. And the baby looked like, come on man, let my dad go. He was taking care of me. So that baby got him that trip. And I could see his face today. I could see his face and remember when he was killed going to Thomas gas house that night and talking to him and seeing him and he fell in my arms like a child himself. He said, what I'm supposed to do now, tell me what I'm supposed to do. And my body, heart, mind, soul, my response wanted to be like, man, we got to go get them people. That's what-- I was revengeful. Even though I do this work, I was so hurt because I'm like, this is an innocent, beyond innocent baby.

Cleopatra Cowley (16:09):
So let me say this, let me interrupt you just for a second to say, I am now back in court, so I have no intention of speaking on the court case number, how I really, really feel. So we'll just go this route. Okay. In 2012, December, 2012, I remember where I was when Sandy Hook happened and I was standing in the office, the very same place where I was just on the opposite side of the room where I was when I got the call for idea, when Sandy Hook happened, I stood up, we were all devastated and I said, oh my God, I can't imagine sending my child to school and them never coming home. Those were the words.

Peter Cunningham (16:43):
That was six weeks before.

Cleopatra Cowley (16:45):
And then January 29th, 2013, I sent my daughter to school and she never came home. So I know where you were going with what you were saying. You basically saying, I can't imagine. I always stop people from saying, I can't imagine because I said, I can't imagine. And then God was like, oh, for real. Well let's check this out. Let's see what you'll be like. And so now I'm stuck with the result of that and I don't want to pay that forward. So I always stop people and say, don't do it. Don't do it. Thank you. Don't do it.

Kanoya Ali (17:12):
I definitely appreciate it.

Cleopatra Cowley (17:14):
Again, that's a pay it forward. What we were talking about earlier, let's tell me praying for you. You don't have to imagine it. It has happened to me. So you know it's terrible because you're already parents. You already know. It's absolutely terrible. It is something to, you don't have any idea. And I know you've had more child more time with your child than I had with mine, so I know you don't have any idea just how far your dreams go. We don't even know we're dreaming about the stuff we're dreaming about until there's nothing to dream for. There's no goal that they can, there's no happiness that they can provide. There's nothing. When I met forever by losing my daughter, it changed my world.

Peter Cunningham (17:57):
When I met forever.

Cleopatra Cowley (17:59):
When I met forever.

Peter Cunningham (18:00):
That's your phrase. I like that.

Cleopatra Cowley (18:00):
Yeah,

Peter Cunningham (18:01):
When I met forever.

Cleopatra Cowley (18:03):
Yeah. Been saying that for years. Forever is real.

Peter Cunningham (18:08):
I also know you went through, what about five years of the trial and free trial and

Cleopatra Cowley (18:13):
You mean before the first sentence? I really went through about over eight years to be perfectly honest. And the gag is I got better than a year break and now I'm right back in court again. So

Peter Cunningham (18:24):
You're back in court involved in this case in some way. They

Cleopatra Cowley (18:27):
Overturned. Yes, they overturned the conviction for the shooter.

Peter Cunningham (18:30):
Really?

Cleopatra Cowley (18:30):
On January 2nd,

Peter Cunningham (18:32):
Just this year.

Cleopatra Cowley (18:33):
So I'm literally back in court as if the previous court never occurred.

Peter Cunningham (18:41):
We don't think about that. You can't even move on. You're still living with it. You're still enduring it.

Cleopatra Cowley (18:47):
I'm always going to live with it. But it's like where you might have an opportunity to process and kind of compartmentalize or package a bundle with fillings so that you can maybe save some space for some new better. And how do you say it more, just better feelings. Then something happens and it reopens the case. So I think that is the part where survivors have to deal more than people understand.

Kanoya Ali (19:18):
Just my backstory just a little bit about me is I went to prison at 17 for being a perpetrator of violence and taking a life of someone. The person I am today, I don't think I would have ever became if that situation didn't happen, it was the worst situation that I could have ever been in it. But my victim is very much like a conscience to me. If I had a chance to be a billionaire and never do this work again or just do this work and live my life regularly, I wouldn't be able to sleep properly if I took the money. I've been in situations where I can make more money and it doesn't sit. I'm not at ease. Very.

Cleopatra Cowley (20:36):
Why?

Kanoya Ali (20:37):
Because my victim, it was unnecessary. It was unnecessary and it didn't need to happen. I was very young and very hurt. I was very vulnerable but angry. I had so many different balls of emotions going around that anyone could have been hurt Right before I went to prison, I remember and I talk about this, I remember being sentenced and the prosecutor asking for so much more time for me, and I asked the judge, can I speak to the family? And he said, yeah. So I turned around and I spoke to the family. I didn't know this was something that was not common. I didn't know. I didn't having your own experience. So when I turned around, the kind of thing you go through.

Cleopatra Cowley (21:37):
Exactly, exactly.

Kanoya Ali (21:40):
When I turned around and spoke to the family, one thing that always sits with me is that his family looks so much like mine. I couldn't decipher who was there for him and who was there for me. It was some people that was like, I could see some people that I would have thought was there for me but was had an angry face because I had went to school with him. You get what I'm saying?

Cleopatra Cowley (22:09):
Absolutely.

Kanoya Ali (22:10):
So they could have been related to him, but he had family that looked similar to mine. And I can't say that I understood. I didn't care about dying. Let me start there. I didn't care if I died. My life didn't have much value to me. And I know that a lot of these young men growing up in Chicago and other areas, they feel valueless

(22:43):
In the space. So they do things to react not based on, not like I know what I'm doing, but based on like, man, I don't care what happens rather I die or go to jail because the situations I'm in, I'm not talking about your protect, but I deal with these young men, but I'm saying some of these young men are in situations. If you go to their homes, you'll see they have situations where they believe anything is better than what I'm dealing with. What I'm going through right now, I don't want to go through this. You think they want to go to prison? That's not a bad thing to them.

Cleopatra Cowley (23:31):
I've had this conversation with people before and they say that, they say, well, at least it guaranteed three meals in a place to rest.

Kanoya Ali (23:38):
When you laying on the bed with bedbugs or you ain't got a place to stay or you don't know if your parent going to let you in or y'all going to be kicked out or you don't have no stable, you don't know if you're going to sleep or somebody trying to kill you because you from this particular street and you just so happen to be cool with these particular people and you got to go through that. It is a stressful and you doing this every day, you talking about homework and going to school, that's not even, so I'm just saying that to say I know so many men now that have made transitions from who they were from the mistake they have made regardless of how bad it was. And I don't know about all men, but I know so many that have made these transitions and been able to be effectively dealing with young men that were on the same war path.

Cleopatra Cowley (24:39):
So I'm nosy. First of all, I just want to be clear, what did you say to the family?

Kanoya Ali (24:45):
I told the family that the prosecutor is just doing a job and she didn't matter. It didn't matter if it was me or your son. They just want to get somebody in prison. And I said, I promise when I get out of prison that I'm going to do something to try to make sure other young guys don't come and make the same mistake I made. I said that to them purposely, but when I got in prison, it almost went out of my mind

Cleopatra Cowley (25:20):
Because you had to fend for yourself

Kanoya Ali (25:21):
Because I had to fend myself at 17, but it came back to me one day. I was in prison talking to some younger guys that came in and I was looking at the buses that would come in every Wednesday or Tuesday and it would be like if it was 20 guys, it was like 18 black guys young and it was almost like you getting a visit. So everybody looking like, who? One of they friends coming? I was like, man, this can't be like this is a system. A system and almost like a guarantee. Oh, we know we got a dozen eggs coming every Tuesday.

Peter Cunningham (26:06):
Wow. Did anyone ever say anything to you that was helpful or meaningful in the midst of your loss? Did anyone help you in any way? We spent a lot of time thinking about how can we help help? You we're an organization that exists to help and I'm just curious what did help you if anything?

Cleopatra Cowley (26:28):
So that is a very loaded question right now actually. Actually I've been screaming for the longest that when an incident occurs, what it feels like on this side is that the only thing people are thinking about is how they're going to rehabilitate person that perpetrated the crime. They get in the system and they're like, okay, so how are we going to keep it from doing it again? And then they want you to come as a survivor and be like, how could we keep them from doing this again? I'm like, you invited me here to ask me how you think they could opinion.

(27:03):
Keep from doing this again. No, it's not even that. It's not. They're asking me how can they keep them from doing it again? Of course I have an opinion, but no one asks how they can help me. How can we help you moving forward? No one asks that. That's a whole miss in the entire system. I've been talking about this for now, 12 years. There are flakes given to the survivor community. There's no consistent support that is provided the way it should be in terms of making certain that the survivor community has what they need to be successful moving forward. There is a lot to process losing someone that had a very promising future. And what I mean by that is anyone that's not doing anything malicious, does that make sense? Not saying you're getting a all A's or B's, who cares? Nobody cares about that. If you're not causing hurt harm or pain to anyone, you're just living your life and your life is suddenly taken. Mom and dad are messed up. Not to mention if you have surviving siblings, we're still expected to parent.

Peter Cunningham (28:18):
Yeah, you got to go right back to it.

Cleopatra Cowley (28:19):
You got to go right back to it.

Peter Cunningham (28:21):
The need is even greater with --

Cleopatra Cowley (28:22):
Newer fears. And then there's a surviving sibling or siblings that have to figure out what to do with that, depending upon what that relationship look like. Who's taking care of that? Nope. They want the surviving family to come to all the meetings and figure out how to rehabilitate the person that caused the problem in the first place.

(28:43):
That can kind of present a little bit of resentment, right? Like, dang, do we matter at all or we only matter if we commit a crime? Having said that, I'm also a believer that there should be something to rehabilitate people that perpetuate crimes. Why? Because there could be a lack of education. I don't assume that it is not yes and no. Right and wrong or wrong are not universal. Not everyone's right is right is the same, right? Not everybody's wrong is the same wrong. Depends on how people are raised. If you know that there's a distinction between the way you're being reared and someone else, then clearly the same rights are not the same rights and the same wrongs are not the same wrongs. Right? Because you got to do what you got to do to eat.

Peter Cunningham (29:28):
As my friend here says all the time, life isn't fair.

Cleopatra Cowley (29:32):
We said all the time and you're thinking, I'm doing all the right stuff, so surely goodness is coming to me and you're not guaranteed that. So I hope that answered the question that you asked.

Peter Cunningham (29:42):
Yeah, it was a painful answer, but a truthful answer.

Cleopatra Cowley (29:46):
Very painful.

Kanoya Ali (29:48):
My thoughts is that there needs to be actual systems in play for the surviving victims, family members and loved ones. There should be something set up for that.

Cleopatra Cowley (30:08):
There should be funds for that. It's almost like there's a lot of money to be made by people being imprisoned. Right? I'm not saying it's almost is a lot of money to be made by people being in prison.

Peter Cunningham (30:17):
No one's figured out how to make money off survivors. I was going to ask you, we're all doing this work, we're all doing different pieces of it. You bring your experience to it. Kanoya brings his experience to it. I bring mine, which is obviously very, very different, largely unrelated to it in many ways. And where do you see hope or where do you see something that gives you the courage and the strength to keep going?

Cleopatra Cowley (30:45):
So I am hypersensitive to myself. And what I mean by that is I feel like when this occurred, there's an underlying anger. And so I always wanted to make sure that the response that I may be given was from said situation, not from something that was unresolved, if that makes sense. So there's that part of it. But right now I'm pursuing my master's in clinical mental health counseling and I'm in the process of starting my internship in the fall. And so I'm very excited for that because I'll be working with Chicago CRED.

Kanoya Ali (31:25):
Oh yeah, that's dope.

Cleopatra Cowley (31:26):
Yes. The goal is to, and something I'm not straight away from, is to actually work with those populations and provide maybe perspectives or conversations that aren't readily available because I'm not afraid to walk in any room or share how things have affected me because I feel like, again, you touched on something very important and that was you're like, this is real. And so my goal again is to always humanize the experiences. Like it has not been a cakewalk. Getting the notification of them overturning the conviction. In January I've been in bed, I am always very transparent.

(32:09):
I've been in bed really processing and dealing with what does this really feel like now does that mean I'm not effective? Absolutely not. That's not what it means. It just means that I'm down just where I thought I was going to be built up and blah blah blah. It has affected me in a way that I don't know if I expected it or not, but I know that my heart just went out to all the people who gave of their time and their voice and conquer their fears the first time to show up in court and make things happen, to now have to go through it again. I know it's hard for me. So it just tripled down on how I feel, like what I feel for everyone else. Me, I deal with it every day. I can't put it on the shelf. There isn't any time period on when it's gone, when I'm going to get through it because every day of my life it's on loop. But for those people that had the option of saying, okay, I've processed this, okay, I can get on with my life for it to now, for the trauma to be revisited, it just breaks my heart.

Peter Cunningham (33:17):
Yeah, I mean it's 12 years and it's still not done and it'll never be done.

Cleopatra Cowley (33:23):
Yeah, and that's the fear, right? Because I'm not dealing with just one individual. I'm dealing with two multiple and there are different timeframes. So right now I'm dealing with one who's to say in another year or two I won't start telling another, but that's my cross the bear, so I'm carrying it.

Peter Cunningham (33:43):
Alright Cleo, well thank you so much.

Kanoya Ali (33:45):
Thank you so much for coming, man.

Cleopatra Cowley (33:47):
Whatever late birdie, tardy to the party.

Kanoya Ali (33:51):
You start working with Chicago CRED, I'm going to make sure you on time, I'm going to make sure you on. You better not be two minutes late.

(34:05):
That's all for this episode of License to Operate. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share this episode with your friends.

Peter Cunningham (34:13):
This podcast is a co-production of The Chi Podcast and Cunningham Creative. Until next time, I'm Peter Cunningham.

Kanoya Ali (34:19):
And I'm Kanoya Ali. Remember, give yourself grace.